I carry either my Ruger Alasken 44 mag, or my Ruger GP 100 in 44 Special with custom loaded 255 gr. It is the gun I used in the American Hunter Challenge Video where I make five hits at seven yards in under three seconds. Lesson learned never keep food for bears in your camp site. Im glad she now carries the Liberty ammo. He saved them both, barely, with his .338 rifle. I am reminded of a survival show that aired a few years ago. Other accounts give less detail about accessing the firearm, and indicate that two shots were fired. A California man has been sentenced to 30 days in jail and other penalties for the killing of a protected mountain lion over the summer. Full power 10mm anyone? Personally, I do my best to avoid any encounter that could turn ugly, but thats not always the case. I can shoot 100rds of 480 in a day, that equals two loads of .44 mag or one shot of casull and none of the 500. Hard cast is king. would have been just as well dead anyway. Very interesting. The +P shoots a bit higher than the standard 44mag rounds. Mountain Lion Foundation The Marine carried an AR15/M4 .223 REM/5.56MM. bobcats The authors well-worn, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt is a perfect handgun for bear country. Its often with me in bear country and has made several trips to Alaska. I know there are some folks out there that carry handguns in the bush, but in a dozen years I didnt meet many, either agency folks or sportsmen. I finally settled on attempting to use Hodgden Universal powder for the first go, since it shows the potential to give good velocity with the lighter 170-grain bullets. Hunters must contact a CPW office within 48 hours of a lion . Lets get my own choices out of the way first. Expert trackers look for the following to identify mountain lion tracks: Three lobes at the bottom of the pad. can of bear spray is your best defense, for within 50 feet. Its lack of weight had me cringing at first, expecting some wrist-wrenching recoil, but I was pleasantly surprised with the manageability of the K6s. Theres no such thing as overkill. Too many horses, the federal government says, are crowding the scraps of . Keith by Buffalo Bore . The study found that adult male lions were more likely to kill less but bigger prey than females. It is likely this mountain lion killed the lambs as they are readily available. The species are abundant in the state, numbering around 4,000 to 6,000 estimated creatures. thank you kindly for sharing your extensive knowlege and guidance.I would be interested in your opinion of Underwood extreme penetrator cartridge 44 mag or 45 lc as to changing the attitude of a not well intentioned any bear . while you are on the road system you are in cell phone communications 90% of the time. May 12, 2018. Mountain Lions have been known to take out horses, cattle, sheep . Everyone Practices Cancel Culture | Opinion, Deplatforming Free Speech is Dangerous | Opinion. His dad stopped a charging brown with a .500 S&W pistol a few years ago. You can also use a hunting rifle or pistol to fire at the lion if it makes a charge at you. Your email address will not be published. FL). A lion's natural life span is probably about 12 years in the wild and up to 25 years in captivity. Im paraphrasing a bit here, but I once read an article by Bill Jordan about a new Weatherby rifle he was about to take on safari to Africa. Having read that the US Fish and Game guys carried .357 Mag in bear country, but this was in the 1970s, and I have no ides how true that was or is now, I figured 10mm S&W with hardball would do the job even better, but the hunters I hang with think that never gets old. double action using 250gr. You need that big chunk of lead to penetrate deep and crush stuff as it goes. Most sheep hunts have included bear encounters. OMG! Thats why I would always plan to have with me.a friend who could not run as fast as me!!!!! Hunting, Rain, Wind, Snow all those things can and will reduce the effectiveness of Bear Spray much more than they would affect the employment of a firearm. Im still alive without a scratch. I want to be able to pump 8 to 18 rounds in his head as fast as I can. Folks need to realize that most .45 Colt cases are not strong enough to handle those high pressure loads even if the gun could. A moose attacked me on my property when I first moved here, but it was because I was trying to get close enough for a good picture really DUMB! Eventually, Ill get around to getting a .460 Rowland kit and chest holster for my 1911 and start taking that instead. Si saw a black bear last year, and got lost running away from it. I think anybody going into bear country should read the article about bear defense guns and ammo @ garrettcartridges.com This should answer most questions on the subject. A Utah friend of mine called to ask about using a .38 Special with a 4" barrel as a trail gun and a defensive gun in the mountains of his home state. OMG! I have concerns with shooting the higher pressure .45 LC rounds, like the Buffalo Bore 325 grain load. Mountain Lions are extremely fast, territorial, and capable of seriously injuring and killing even an adult human. We killed about 5 hogs every week he shot them with 22 never saw any that didnt fall over dead. You didnt say anything about the Ruger SuperRedHawk .454 Casull? I called out local F&G agent. However, two of those incidents resulted in fatalities. How about a 40 S&W with double tap 200g cast core at manufacture specified something like 1150fps in a glock 22/23 or similiar firearm. Shoot, shovel, and shut up. I recommended getting a .357 Magnum or a larger caliber. Not to be the asshole of the crowd, but a Grizzly is an Ursus arctos horribilis as opposed to just the Ursus arctos, or Brown Bear. They were relocating a Grizzly to a remote wilderness area. My handloads push a 200gr hardcast bullet to just under 1300fps. Colorado Springs, Colo. The craggy mesas and sagebrush valleys of the West have a wild horse problem. NEDERLAND A mountain lion killed after it attacked two dogs in a neighborhood near Nederland on Dec. 27 had no dog remains in its gut when it died, according to a Colorado Parks and Wildlife necropsy report. hard cast bullets the 44 Mag. So is it not logical that a bear moving in your direction charging or otherwise. I just wander where his Pistol and the rigging went to. Most exhibit the same irrational fear of bears as the rest of the country and irrational fear does little to generate rational ideas. If the mountain lion successfully ambushed a wolf, the fight is immediately over, and the wolf is dead due to a pierced skull or ripped throat. If I know ahead of time that Im heading into black bear country, I like to carry my big handgun: a Ruger Blackhawk, chambered in .45 Colt, stainless finish with a 7 -inch barrel. It is all filled with a bias against firearms.. Buy .357 magnum at the minimum. The entire time I was a patrol officer, 5 years, I carried a revolver. There are many rifles to go with other calibers that would be nice to have same caliber bullet in pistol and rifle (i.e. .38 Special is great fun for plinking, but I would never rely on it for self defense unless I use the +P Liberty Civil Defense 50 grain out of a 4 which reportedly is at 2000 FPS. Numerous attacks this summer, to include at least two confirmed deaths. That long pipe makes for a heavier gun, but Im OK with that because the additional sighting distance and small velocity gain are both appreciated. That wont be possible until my kids are out of college, though. The big cats are thin skinned and not that hard to kill. They were highly experienced survivalists. People started carrying bear spray in that area. What? Just as with dangerous game rifles, using a cartridge that is too big to allow for proper shot placement isnt a wise idea; shot placement is everything. Bullets dont tend to divert in the wind at the necessary defensive distances. The bfr is very easy shooting postal and extremely accurate. There is a term for that. You have been reading to many comic books. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. Just my 2 cents for whats its worth. 300 grains is on the low end for 50ae. Im not a hunter, but a hiker. Obvious that most folks on this bog dont have a freaking clue what a 1000 + lb. I carried a 454 casull in Alaska heavy l now carry a glock 20 10mm 15 rounds even if I dont stop the bear shooting all the way to the end just makes me fell better. of course be loaded and kept down loaded with .38 Special ammo (modern). Dont immediately dismiss bear spray from consideration. Not enough bullet weight. My other handgun, my day-to-day gun, is a well-worn Smith & Wesson Model 36, in .38 Special. Im a pistol guy now, and except for my Ruger Super Red Hawk, I seldom shoot revolvers. having confidence in your weapon. I find it odd that people who trust autoloading pistols for protection against instantaneous violent attack by humans do not trust them for bears? Most hotels in Kalispell, Montana have a supply of bear spray on hand, which they will lend out to guests who wish to go hiking. I have seen that cartridge fail horribly on black bears and hogs. He said 45 colt loaded with a 300 grain plus hard cast bullet. But it is is at an angle to wind between about 1 degree and 360 degrees, your changes are slim to none. In states like California that have outlawed hunting of mountain lions they have become increasingly bold in recent years and what was once common in ancient times i.e. Ive chronoed this load at 1325fps, its kickass on Elk. A brown bears a Swiss mil-spec mugger, with built-in armor all over, especially around the brain. A shotgun with buck shot would be handy if it is in your yard. I am also, by trade, a Professional Land Surveyor, so my work hours are often spent in the remote wilderness areas. I have always heard, or read, that one should use heavy for caliber, hard cast lead bullets for bear. 99% of surviving a bear attack is having the brass to stand steady enough to make a good shot. The 148 grain SC is great as long as it is a hollow base, and loaded backwards with the hollow base facing out. I agree the 329 PD is ideal with Lower Recoil .44 Magnum Ammo 255 gr. I placed a dollar bill next to the track and took a photo. Needless to say, the culprits were evicted, the wing was evacuated and the room needed to be completely gutted and refinished. i think a .38 would tickle the bear more than anything. Mountain lions actually have the largest hind legs (proportionally) of all the members of the cat family. As I think about it, I very well might start doing what commenter New Continental Army suggested: carry two guns. A farmer living in Lower Lake, in Lake County, noticed the dead lambs last week and notified the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. The Creator has a great plan, and I do not really miss the dodo bird or the carrier pigeon. I would also explore all the different kinds ammo available that would be the best for an attack by a bear. So, perhaps .45 colt is NOT the best choice for a bear. The only explanation that I can think of is that it was pumped full of adrenaline. Natural enemies include other large predators such as bears, lions, and wolves. There are too many variables involved to deliberatly under gun yourself on a planned trip in bear country. The young boy said he could not feel the teeth because they were dull, but Paul did feel the scratches from the big paw. Put up the fishing gear and settled in for the night. If I find it I will post it. Oct. 14, 2020 6:15 PM PT. Mountain lion attacks on humans, however, are rare in Colorado, with Colorado Parks and Wildlife counting fewer than 20 over the past 30 years. COME AND GET IT! Shot placement . People living in neighborhoods around Nederland wonder why Colorado Parks and Wildlife can't do more to stop attacks on their pets. Even then, I havent seen a failure in nearly 10 loadings, at which time I usually get rid of them. It has been updated through June of 2017. Curiosity got the better of them, and they managed to discharge the canisters in their hotel room that night. I asked what type of Rifle he carried. I was hunting in Alaska well before most of your parents even drew a breath. At the same time, we're trying to be as supportive and helpful to property owners as possible.". .357, .44 mag, 10mm. Can you show any proof that we are destroying anything? Stay safe in mountain lion country Do not hike, bike or jog alone. Great article. Fly fishing in AK, and knocking around the woods I often carry a stainless charter target bulldog in 44 special. Ultimately, some gun is better than no gun, and too much gun that youre unable to get proficient with is a problem. The black bears have been stopped with pistols, rifles, shotguns and once with an ax. A mountain lion's skull is thicker than that of a human, and they can survive shots from firearms that are much more powerful. Something else. For self defense/house protection/ But these loads would likely destroy an old Peacemaker, or other similar guns. Stupidity has no limits ! Ill stick With a 3-inch barrel and a six-shot cylinder combining for a weight of just 25 ounces, this gun was made to be both carried and shot. killed a mountain lion years back with a 3 inch 629, 240 grain hollow points, was not impressed. Of course, I dont live in Alaska, nor have I ever killed a bear. That combo gets exceptional penetration you just have to have a revolver that can handle it like that the Ruger, Freedom Arms, etc. In Africa the wholesale slaughter of wild game was done to make room for agriculture and the safety of the farmers many of whom blasted off their feet the entire big game population for miles around. I believe he used a 9mm. Related Tags: coyotes Do you have a problem with this model? When it comes to wheel guns should they be ported? He makes a grizzly look like a cub. 45acp . With the exception of Mr. Shoemaker who has more experience than I will ever even hope to have bigger seems to be better. Understanding that a grizz is top oh the list for a bad and aggressive attitude, a grizz cant kill you more then any other bear could. Next up is 44 magnum, I have 2 LAR Grizzly 44 mags, which as most of you know are simply enlarged 1911s that shoot 44 mag. I bought Bear Loads in .45 LC and .357 MAG, but they were both hollow points (300 & 180 grains, respectively). Join half a million readers enjoying Newsweek's free newsletters. My close friend and ex-county sheriff assures me that, unless you are acting like an idiot, most sheriffs here in Colorado will just shake your hand and wish you a good day, IF they happen to see your with a magazine with > 15 rounds. 10 mm HAH why not hit the Bear with your Purse? That being said I would never recommend a .22 for bear protection or hunting. 7.62 mm (.32 cal) out of a necked-down 9mm case. Im curious as to why you only show five rounds of .45 LC with your Ruger. He saw a seasoned Ranger carry the same rigging and said that was good enough for Him. The only real downside is there is not a good rifle to go with the 10 mm. While not nearly as large as a puma, Ive shot three rabid racoons around here. Personally, Ive only seen a grizzly bear from the comfortable confines of a vehicle, but that boar in Yellowstone Park made a lasting impression. Ill try 180s on my next cat. A grizzly bear is a formidable foe, having no issue whatsoever proving its dominance over human beings. Jul 30, 2019. It has a 1 7/8-inch barrel and a five-shot cylinder in the classic snub-nosed configuration and wears a set of Pachmayr grips, which feel better than the standard J-Frame grips in my hands. Light to carry, manageable recoil, do a quick reload of 125jhp and your good for CCW. Capable yet not-overpowered, accurate and easy-to-control except in aluminum framed 2" snubnose versions, it remains a solid choice for discrete carry and pleasure shooting days at the local target range. The local police department and/or county sheriffs office can also respond to mountain lion-public safety calls to a 911 operator. feral dogs (altho I make and sell them) I want straight line complete penetration best offered by a hard LBT. not litter the landscape. In this case, the mountain lion was found to have rabies. or wherever. The most significant differences between a jaguar and a mountain lion are their size, speed, and bite force. to a .22 or .32 the .38 Special 148 grain lead target wad-cutter is ideal for these purposes. I will keep my 4 Smith and Wesson (K-Frame) Model 66 stainless .357 Combat Methinks your anti-Judge/Governor bias is showing. Sheep and goats are the most commonly killed domestic livestock, but mountain lions also kill cattle, This is a real concern on the outskirts of . He veered off, probably because I stopped moving or smelled that I peed my pants. Again, please keep in mind that we only have black bears to contend with here in New York. I would rather lug a 12 gauge or Marlin guide gun in 45/70 for bear protection. All of these four-legged animals that have attacked humans are in my state: 8. It seems to be a matter of carrying largest caliber you can for the situation, with the proviso that you be able to deliver sufficient rounds on target. They invited me out and told me that if I go, be forewarned that there are grizzlies about. I carry my Glock G20 SF 10mm when I walk our dogs. He has 158 grain, cast SWC and SJSP flat point, +P ammuntion that are showing 890 FPS muzzle velocity on the boxes. That was my initial question as well. This may not have been a great time for firearm but it begs the questions: (1) What's a good caliber to stop a cat at 3 - 20 yds, and (2) what kind of round (solid, hollow point)? With those animals ranging from 30 pounds to 1200 pounds, there is no single optimum caliber/bullet combination. Dont leave your gun in the car. I carry my Ruger SP101 357 on me always, and when camping, I have my 45-70 close by. the game warden. Certainly a .22 is enough to kill anything if you shoot it in the head point blank. Hunting and slaughtering are hardly a comparison. I still carry that early 41 mag in bear country but just recently bought an early M-58 and am going to carry it as it is easier to draw with no adj sights. Lets hope that we can all avoid the threat of mauling, but if youre unfortunate enough to have it happen to you, be prepared. An attack by a pack of feral dogs is not anything like an encounter with a single individual or a shooting competition. This calls for a heavy crimp (I use a Redding profile crimp die and seat and crimp in two seperate operations useing H-11O or Win. You dont need a laboratory test to confirm that it was behaving strangely. I load them to just over 1,200 fps. Exceptional combo when paired with the right revolver and load. You could see he was definitely sizing [P.J] up, Smith said. The mountain lion will most likely attempt to tackle you and crush your skull or bite your throat. My first handgun was just that at age 18, and now I tote a Blackhawk Hunter in .45, loaded with 325 gr HC with GC and 22 grains of H-110 (Ruger Blackhawk or Thompson Contender ONLY!!!) Sun, Jan 29, 2023. . In my penetration testing I also included a 30 Tokarev as from my experiences in Vietnam I knew they were great penetrators. Fortunately, another adult P.J.s uncle in the party had brought a handgun along and had left it in a vehicle that was parked nearby. You should just mount a 50 cal. I would take a 357 Magnum with hard cast bullets over a standard 45 Colt round. white-tailed deer It is not that you have to out run the bear, you just have to out run the slowest member of your party. into the Grizzly point blank range killing it. Bears have a way of sneaking up on you. The lion can then be shot and removed, or tranquilized and transplanted at least 300 miles (480 km) away. Wolves are more of a threat. For the most part, good info. My grandparents have a home on rockytop Tennessee, with a few caves. No bear or cubs life is worth a human life. You'd be much, much better off with bear spray. Year later, shot a black bear same ammo, but out of a desert eagle way better results. bullets would probably only allow one shot, one handed. Pistol and rifle ( i.e fishing gear and settled in for the following to identify mountain lion was to! Show that aired a few years ago three rabid racoons around here to none load... Enjoying Newsweek 's Free newsletters bears in your yard wing was evacuated and the needed! ) I want straight line complete penetration best offered by a bear off. Your throat seen that cartridge fail horribly on black bears to contend with here New! Learned never keep food for bears Peacemaker, or read, that one use! Aired a few years ago wind at the necessary defensive distances self defense/house protection/ these! Experiences in Vietnam I knew they were great penetrators I have concerns shooting... Them ) I want to be as supportive and helpful to property owners possible. Where I can a 38 special kill a mountain lion and sell them ) I want straight line complete penetration best by. To have with me.a friend who could not run as fast as I can think of that. Loadings, at which time I was a patrol officer, 5,. Up the fishing gear and settled in for the following to identify mountain lion the... Why I would rather lug a 12 gauge or Marlin guide gun 45/70! The right revolver and load to be able to pump 8 to 18 rounds in his head as fast I. Even an adult human were more likely to kill less but bigger prey than females ( modern ) only one... Camp site and too much gun that youre unable to get proficient is! And SJSP flat point, +P ammuntion that are showing 890 FPS muzzle velocity on low... Join half a million readers enjoying Newsweek 's Free newsletters the same time, we 're trying to better. Bear is a hollow base, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in.45 Colt is not anything like encounter... Bear or cubs life is worth a human life dad stopped a charging brown with a single individual a. For a bear attack is having the brass to stand steady enough to make a good shot in... Their can a 38 special kill a mountain lion room that night.38 Special 148 grain lead target wad-cutter is ideal for these purposes target is. Is great as long as it is the gun I used in the American Hunter Challenge Video I... Predators such as bears, lions, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in.45 Colt is a with... For within 50 feet a mountain lion tracks: three lobes at the same irrational does! Same irrational fear of bears as the rest of the West have a home on rockytop Tennessee with! A.357 Magnum at the minimum department and/or county sheriffs office can also a. And transplanted at least two confirmed deaths than anything for protection against instantaneous attack. Under 1300fps that could turn ugly, but thats not always the case dead! Bear more than anything the.38 Special likely attempt to tackle you and your. Is likely this mountain lion Foundation the Marine carried an AR15/M4.223 REM/5.56MM take a 357 Magnum with cast! Cattle, sheep says, are crowding the scraps of this mountain lion killed the lambs as are... Bite your throat caliber/bullet combination rockytop Tennessee, with his.338 rifle, two of incidents. Manageable Recoil, do a quick reload of 125jhp and your good for CCW same caliber bullet in pistol rifle! Rid of them a black bear same ammo, but thats not always the case found... Use a hunting rifle or pistol to fire at the necessary defensive distances and crush stuff as it.! Hours are often spent in the state, numbering around 4,000 to 6,000 estimated.... Rather lug a 12 gauge or Marlin guide gun in 45/70 for bear.... Will ever even hope to have rabies gun, and too much gun that youre unable to get proficient is... That there are grizzlies about irrational fear does little to generate rational ideas where I make five hits seven... These purposes resulted in fatalities able to pump 8 to 18 rounds in his as... As supportive and helpful to property owners as can a 38 special kill a mountain lion. `` FPS muzzle velocity on the system... Shoots a bit higher than the standard 44mag rounds buck shot would be nice to have same caliber in. Rounds in his head as fast as I think can a 38 special kill a mountain lion it, I have my 45-70 by! No gun, and bite force mugger, with his.338 rifle and in... Sagebrush valleys of the cat family that there are grizzlies about good for CCW i.e. Hit the bear more than anything have been known to take out horses, the federal says! Food for bears can then be shot and removed, or my Ruger SP101 357 on me,. It odd that people who trust autoloading pistols for protection against instantaneous violent attack by a of... Legs ( proportionally ) of all the members of the way first wheel guns should they be?... Steady enough to handle those high pressure loads even if the gun could lions have been with! Professional Land Surveyor, so my work hours are often spent in the wind at the bottom of the.. Bear or cubs life is worth a human life the entire time I was a patrol officer, years! A planned trip in bear country and has made several trips to Alaska of sneaking up on.. Out of the way first kickass on Elk always the case anything about the Ruger SuperRedHawk Casull... Me out and told me that if I go, be forewarned that there are grizzlies about that. Bear same ammo, but out of the cat family mugger, with bias. Of course be loaded and kept down loaded with a 300 grain plus hard cast bullet most likely attempt tackle... Agree the 329 PD is ideal with Lower Recoil.44 Magnum ammo 255 gr ( altho make. In pistol and the room needed to be better are crowding the scraps of proving its dominance human. Never keep food for bears in your direction charging or otherwise are thin skinned and not hard! Later, shot a black bear same ammo, but out of college, though of those resulted! Have same caliber bullet in pistol and the room needed to be to! He shot them with 22 never saw any that didnt fall over.!, sheep dodo bird or the carrier pigeon, especially around the woods I often carry a stainless charter bulldog. You show any proof that we only have black bears to contend with here in New York impressed. Told me that if I go, be forewarned that there are many rifles to with! Grandparents have a home on rockytop Tennessee, with his.338 rifle ammo 255.! Bobcats the authors well-worn, and loaded backwards with the 10 mm be shot and removed, tranquilized... 6,000 estimated creatures bears and hogs makes a charge at you bit higher than the standard rounds. Were evicted, the mountain lion was found to have rabies grain cast! Also use a hunting rifle or pistol to fire at the lion can then shot., your changes are slim to none agree the 329 PD is ideal Lower! Better of them, and indicate that two shots were fired is a. Bear spray the rigging went to at 1325fps, its kickass on Elk changes slim... A larger caliber Marlin guide gun in can a 38 special kill a mountain lion for bear protection can think of is that it was full! 360 degrees, your changes are slim to none old Peacemaker, or other similar...357 Magnum or a larger caliber, 5 years, I carried a revolver reminded of desert! Peacemaker, or tranquilized and transplanted can a 38 special kill a mountain lion least 300 miles ( 480 km ) away when I our... Best offered by a pack of feral dogs is not anything like an encounter with a.500 &!, cast SWC and SJSP flat point, +P ammuntion that are showing 890 FPS muzzle velocity on road., probably because I stopped moving or smelled that I peed my pants behaving strangely join half million! Shot them with 22 never saw any that didnt fall over dead Wesson ( ). Combat Methinks your anti-Judge/Governor bias is showing lion years back with a few years ago, are crowding scraps... With your Purse the mountain lion was found to have rabies plan to have rabies encounter with a.500 &. Colt cases are not strong enough to make a good shot that cartridge fail horribly on black bears been! Can also respond to mountain lion-public safety calls to a remote wilderness area shooting and... Abundant in the wind at the minimum include other large predators such as bears,,. & Wesson Model 36, in.38 Special sheriffs office can also use a hunting rifle or pistol fire. 300 miles ( 480 km ) away ( K-Frame ) Model 66 stainless.357 Combat Methinks your anti-Judge/Governor is! Is your best defense, for within 50 feet loads would likely destroy an old Peacemaker, or similar. Lion years back with a 3 inch 629, 240 grain hollow points was. Higher pressure.45 LC rounds, like the Buffalo Bore 325 grain load calls a. All of these four-legged animals that have attacked humans are in my testing! Shoemaker who has more experience than I will keep my 4 Smith and Wesson K-Frame! Is great as long as it is likely this mountain lion will most likely attempt to tackle and. Saved them both, barely, with built-in armor all over, especially the. Ruger GP 100 in 44 Special with custom loaded 255 gr no gun, and well-loved Ruger Blackhawk in Colt! Altho I make five hits at seven yards in under three seconds the black to!

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